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Forums Gatorsports Forums Politics Taught the kids a civics lesson tonight with some Halloween candy
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Heisman Gator |
In our era, to some, justice means equalizing outcomes. That's a form of definition one - the greatest happiness for the greatest number. To others, it means ensuring the least impingement on "liberty", defined as the free choices of free adults. That's definition two. If one takes the third option seriously, one also must take seriously the notion of a teleological component to morality - that there is a "right thing to do" which is given by virtue of an inherent purpose. That's close to where I come down, though my guess is that the Harvard professor would opine that the purpose of institutions such as government are determined by humans. I would not put it quite that way. Nor, I suspect, would you. --------------------------------------------------- “A tenacious hold on trivial fact is the secret of my genius” - Agathon the Seer |
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Freshman Gator |
I used the same "right thing to do" earlier in this thread. I used the word community with particular intent because too much government enforced community is communism...greatest happiness for the greatest number. Well, the government can't provide true happiness to anyone. The founders recognized that true happiness only comes with true liberty. "The pursuit of happiness" allows everyone to pursue happiness according to their own definition. I'm not sure that spending long periods of time on the public dole meets those requirements. True community is when the community voluntary helps each other, especially the destitute, individually or through associations such as Salvation Army, Homeless Shelters, etc. As I mentioned in another thread, the dollars go a whole lot further than when they aren't filtered through the government. Again, I'm not opposed to some government assistance, it's just that because of trying to be all things to all people and buy votes that government spending has grown beyond sustainability. Regardless of anyone's desire of what govt should take on, we can't continue on this path. By the way, most everything the govt does has a moral component whether people want to acknowledge it or not and those moral decisions filter into our societal fabric. |
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Heisman Gator |
Everyone complains about big govt and their tax burden.But what can you really do about either?
You can move to a island somewhere and hope it's not like the TV show Lost.You can run for office yourself and see if you can make a difference but I think that's been tried.We had conservatives running everything for 6 years and nothing got better. Or you can quit complaining and enjoy each day we have in this short life and thank your creator for your blessings. But then we wouldn't have a political forum would we?Imagine Scoobyvol saying nice things about people he didn't vote for.The shock would probably be too much for those of us with a weak heart.Never mind. |
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Freshman Gator |
Well said...I give thanks every day for the many blessings we have from our Creator and for this great nation, despite our complaints. We have to try to push back at these Congresspersons who have become a protected class with no real accountability to their electorate. Somewhere along the way, the idea of citizen legislators was lost and that is at the heart of the problem. The last Republican administration and Congress squandered their opportunity with their fiscal misbehavior as well...they threw off conservative philosophies in their governance and paid the price at the ballot box. Both parties have lost their way, and we will be lost with them. |
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Heisman Gator |
And what is "true liberty?" I submit that, just as the notion of "social justice" has devolved into "equality of outcome", true liberty is now nothing more than license to "pursue happiness according to one's own definition" no matter how immoral that definition may be - as long as it doesn't impinge on another's pursuit of what he or she defines as "true happiness." --------------------------------------------------- “A tenacious hold on trivial fact is the secret of my genius” - Agathon the Seer |
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Head Ball Coach |
Cats - ultimately what you are arguing against is a flowery rationalization of selfish interests. People just don't want to pay their damn taxes, so the couch it in terms of "liberty" and other lofty notions.
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Heisman Gator |
Some think true liberty is having no govt whatsoever and being able to do or say whatever you want.Others might call that anarchy. But with 300 million people it's probably impossible to ever reach agreement on anything anymore.Let alone all the things our govt tries to undertake with trillions of dollars of citizen's money at stake. But perhaps the purpose of life and why we were put here is to overcome our own selfish instincts and make some attempt to show some semblance of kindness and compassion for other human beings.That's not as hard as people make it out to be. |
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Freshman Gator |
I was referring to the exercise of liberty in the classical sense that I understand to be 1) liberty that does not interfere with the private property rights of another and 2) liberty that does not violate the mores of the society as canonized in law and shared mores. For example, in the "devolved" definition of liberty, "if it feels good do it" would say that prostitution, recreational drug use and recreational sex are all victimless crimes. I can put forward plenty of reasons that they are not. Prostitution and recreational sex damage public health by promoting STD's, often are a violation of marraige vows (a mutual contract of fidelity), lead to the break up of families and hurt to children, and increase the number of single-parent households which statistically increases poverty and crime. When the culture itself ostracized pre-marital pregnancy, it is hard to argue that the social structure wasn't stronger due to more traditional families with a mother and father working together to provide for the family and raise the kids. Likewise, recreational drug use can lead to accidents and injuries to innocents, the inability to perform a job leading to theft and other crimes, and so on. For true liberty to exist, society must require a certain amount of self-restraint. When the society is no longer able to enforce these self-restraints by some form of shared mores, the government must. Through that action, more and more liberty is lost. As the government grows more and more powerful to accomplish this, more and more liberty is lost both socially and financially. |
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Heisman Gator |
I disagree to a point.Self restraint is surely an admirable trait.IMHO true liberty has nothing to do with society and certainly not money.But living in a country where the almighty dollar is considered our life blood we are led to believe otherwise. There are poor people all over the world who are free and happy without all that we believe we need to be free. True liberty is knowing who you are,where you came from and where you are going.It can come from religion but many religions are just another form of the govt. When you know thyself and how you relate to all the other selves and how we are basically the same with not much time to wander this mortal coil you will be free. This can be difficult because we have this little voice in our head that tells us we are different from people of other races,creeds and religions.The same voice tells us that we need lots of things to be free when actually all we need is food and air and water. The little voice is called an ego and is the single biggest obstacle in our quest for true freedom.But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong but I doubt it. |
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Heisman Gator |
That statement makes little sense to me. Humans are by nature social animals. No human is truly human unless he or she is part of a society. That being the case, true liberty always is limited in scope. Our society - fed mostly by market forces - takes "happiness" as defined by the individual to be the be-all and end-all. Nothing is, or should ever be, allowed to question that sacred right. Liberty is thus negatively defined by the right as allowing anything that does not impinge on another's right to pursue happiness. On the left it is defined as an obligation by the state to ensure the greatest happiness for the greatest number. --------------------------------------------------- “A tenacious hold on trivial fact is the secret of my genius” - Agathon the Seer |
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Heisman Gator |
There are lots of people in the world who live far away from big cities and live off the land and are very human.Happiness is a state of mind.Most people need social interaction because that's what they're used to. But a lot of people have a dream of going off and living on a tropical island away from society and govt and all the things we complain about endlessly in this forum and in our private lives. Personally I'd love to go live in the highlands of Scotland and raise sheep or some kind of livestock as far away from the hustle and bustle of society as I can get.I don't have that many friends now so I won't be missing anyone.A cabin out in the Rockies somewhere and someway to keep the Griz away and I'll be great. I don't know how I've lived down here in the flatland tropics as long as I have.Must be my football team. But to say you have to be part of a society to be human is just your opinion which I don't agree with.Your ego may need social interaction but I don't have that problem and I'm not alone. Percentage-wise worldwide you're obviously right but things might be changing.But true liberty/freedom/happiness which I think are all closely related is a state of mind. |
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Heisman Gator |
Not living in a big city doesn't inoculate one from the need for community.
"Happiness is a state of mind," is a trivialism. It adds nothing to one's understanding of the term. Of course happiness is a state of mind. What else could it be. Your second statement rings a bit shallow to me. Or perhaps your definition of "social interaction" is too limited. Do you not read books? That's social interaction. You spend a great deal of time on this forum discussing ideas, that's social interaction as well. You eat food provided by others. If you have children or were at one time a child, you could not have done without "social interaction" to survive to become the person you are.
You seem to be reading more into the word "society" than was intended. When I use that term, I'm using it more in the anthropological sense as the way in which the members of a community live together in mutual interdependence. As you say, many people "dream" of living the Jeremiah Johnson lifestyle. Yet for probably 99.9% of the billions of people on this earth, that is not reality, nor is it preferable. Your fantasy - held by an infinitesimal few, whose distance from the struggle for daily subsistence allows them the luxury of indulging in such daydreams - is not sustainable. It was only when he had to limit his liberty and live in community with his "family" that Jeremiah Johnson was truly human. --------------------------------------------------- “A tenacious hold on trivial fact is the secret of my genius” - Agathon the Seer |
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Heisman Gator |
I didn't say I wouldn't take my wife and bird and kittens.But family is not society.If the wife dies I can make it fine with my pets. And if 99.9% of the world need social interaction to be happy then based on a 7 billion world population that makes about 7 million people who don't.7 million people is more than the population of a lot states and countries. If you feel my state of mind statement trivializes happiness then I guess I didn't state what I meant clearly enough.I wouldn't disagree that being locked up in solitary confinement for the rest of your life might possibly drive you nuts.But being locked up with a room full of wingnuts might do the same thing and you have plenty of social interaction there. What about spiritual interaction? A lot of christians think God or Jesus is with them at all times.I sort of agree though I might use a different name for the eternal creator.If your religion means anything then it should be able to guide you through all situations.If you believe in nothing and that you are truly alone outside of social settings then yes your points are well taken. |
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Gatorsports.com Forums Gatorsports Forums Politics Taught the kids a civics lesson tonight with some Halloween candy
Forums Gatorsports Forums Politics Taught the kids a civics lesson tonight with some Halloween candy