quote:

Originally posted by Neil35:
Thanks for the correction on SS taxes. We also pay other taxes we fail to add in. Taxes on cell phones and home phones. Taxes on our cable bills. Taxes on utility bills and the lost goes on and on. GOD forbid you smoke or the rate is even higher.

With all taxes and fees which are nothing more than a tax, I paid last year close to 50%.

quote:

Originally posted by Neil35:
Thanks for the correction on SS taxes. We also pay other taxes we fail to add in. Taxes on cell phones and home phones. Taxes on our cable bills. Taxes on utility bills and the lost goes on and on. GOD forbid you smoke or the rate is even higher.

With all taxes and fees which are nothing more than a tax, I paid last year close to 50%.

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
Here's a list of taxes someone put together, I still doubt it's complete:

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL License Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Interest Expense (tax on the money)
Inventory Tax I
RS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
Road Usage Taxes (truckers)
Sales Taxes
School Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and Nonrecurring Charges Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Toll Bridge Taxes Toll
Tunnel Taxes
Trailer Registration
Tax Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers’ Compensation Tax

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
TAX
–noun
1. a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services, levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.
2. a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand.

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
TAX
–noun
1. a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services, levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.
2. a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand.

quote:

Originally posted by AugustaGator:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
TAX
–noun
1. a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services, levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.
2. a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand.

Then where is your car insurance in the list?

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:

quote:

Originally posted by Neil35:
Thanks for the correction on SS taxes. We also pay other taxes we fail to add in. Taxes on cell phones and home phones. Taxes on our cable bills. Taxes on utility bills and the lost goes on and on. GOD forbid you smoke or the rate is even higher.

With all taxes and fees which are nothing more than a tax, I paid last year close to 50%.

Don't forget about the states that add a personal income tax on top of the federal. There is also the "hidden tax" that we pay on every product or service we buy...the corporate tax paid by the manufacturer, provider of the product or service. In addition, excise taxes on everything from tires to liquor to gasoline. The taxes on liquor are about 1/3 the cost of the bottle.

quote:

Notes:
1. Taxes include all federal, state & local taxes (personal and corporate income, payroll, property, sales, excise,
estate etc.).

quote:

Many politicians, pundits and media outlets have recently claimed that the richest one percent
of American taxpayers are providing a hugely disproportionate share of the tax revenue we
need to fund public services. New data from Citizens for Tax Justice show that this simply is
not true. CTJ estimates that the share of total taxes (federal state and local taxes) paid by
taxpayers in each income group is quite similar to the share of total income received by each
income group in 2008.
# The total federal, state and local effective tax rate for the richest one percent of
Americans (30.9 percent) is only slightly higher than the average effective tax rate for
the remaining 99 percent of Americans (29.4 percent).
# From the middle-income ranges upward, total effective tax rates are virtually flat across
income groups.

quote:

Originally posted by brianatwood:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
TAX
–noun
1. a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services, levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.
2. a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand.

Per your definition, you don't think you should have to pay for services rendered?

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:

quote:

Originally posted by brianatwood:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
TAX
–noun
1. a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services, levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.
2. a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand.

Per your definition, you don't think you should have to pay for services rendered?

Never suggested anywhere in this thread that taxes shouldn't be paid. What I'm trying to say is that we are asked to pay too many taxes because government is spending too much money trying to do too many things...most of them not very well.

quote:

Originally posted by brianatwood:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:

quote:

Originally posted by brianatwood:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
TAX
–noun
1. a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services, levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.
2. a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand.

Per your definition, you don't think you should have to pay for services rendered?

Never suggested anywhere in this thread that taxes shouldn't be paid. What I'm trying to say is that we are asked to pay too many taxes because government is spending too much money trying to do too many things...most of them not very well.

OK, but the point of your posts often seems exaggeration, as well consistent over-generalization supporting your opinion regarding government effectiveness.

I'm guessing that they pay a lot less in taxes in Uganda and that they are a lot freer vis a vis government in their daily lives. Where would you rather lives?

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
One more fact about tax burdens:

Remember that the 6.2% SS tax and 1.45% medicare tax that is deducted from everyone's paycheck is also MATCHED by the employer. I don't think it is unreasonable to consider that employer match as part of your deduction as well because it obviously comes out of the businesses payroll budget. That is, businesses might pay higher salaries if they weren't paying that additional tax. It is another way that the TRUE tax burden we pay is hidden. Add it all up and SS/Med tax burden is 15.3%.

How about this solution? Why don't we just stop all employer withholding and instead require each individual to submit all of their taxes to the federal government in a monthly or quarterly check? I think you would quickly see genuine tax reform and more responsible budgeting because the outcry would be unbelievable.

quote:

Notes:
1. Taxes include all federal, state & local taxes (personal and corporate income, payroll, property, sales, excise,
estate etc.).
2. For calculations of income shares and taxes as a % of income, income includes employer-paid FICA taxes and
corporate profits net of taxable dividends, neither of which is included in the average cash income figures shown.

quote:

Originally posted by L-Boy:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
One more fact about tax burdens:

Remember that the 6.2% SS tax and 1.45% medicare tax that is deducted from everyone's paycheck is also MATCHED by the employer. I don't think it is unreasonable to consider that employer match as part of your deduction as well because it obviously comes out of the businesses payroll budget. That is, businesses might pay higher salaries if they weren't paying that additional tax. It is another way that the TRUE tax burden we pay is hidden. Add it all up and SS/Med tax burden is 15.3%.

How about this solution? Why don't we just stop all employer withholding and instead require each individual to submit all of their taxes to the federal government in a monthly or quarterly check? I think you would quickly see genuine tax reform and more responsible budgeting because the outcry would be unbelievable.

Well, it looks like people STILL haven't got it. The FICA taxes, both sides are included in the numbers above. ALL taxes are included.

quote:

Notes:
1. Taxes include all federal, state & local taxes (personal and corporate income, payroll, property, sales, excise,
estate etc.).
2. For calculations of income shares and taxes as a % of income, income includes employer-paid FICA taxes and
corporate profits net of taxable dividends, neither of which is included in the average cash income figures shown.

The FICA taxes are part of the reason why all taxes don't appear as progressive up top. They cap out around $110K, so your marginal tax rate actually DECREASES once you past that point.

Let's see how many more times I have to post this for people to get it. Anybody want to estimate an over / under? 2 times, 3 times, 4 times, more?

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:

quote:

Originally posted by brianatwood:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:

quote:

Originally posted by brianatwood:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
TAX
–noun
1. a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services, levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.
2. a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand.

Per your definition, you don't think you should have to pay for services rendered?

Never suggested anywhere in this thread that taxes shouldn't be paid. What I'm trying to say is that we are asked to pay too many taxes because government is spending too much money trying to do too many things...most of them not very well.

OK, but the point of your posts often seems exaggeration, as well consistent over-generalization supporting your opinion regarding government effectiveness.

I'm guessing that they pay a lot less in taxes in Uganda and that they are a lot freer vis a vis government in their daily lives. Where would you rather lives?

Brian, please specify any genuine exaggeration in this thread. Please point to any government agency that operates with less waste or fraud or more efficiency than the similarly situated private entity. Why are state govts all over the country privatizing operations like prisons, cafeterias, etc? Because they do a better job with less money.

The root problem in the African countries has nothing to do with a particular form of govt but with massive corruption in leadership, whether elected or not. They won't even provide sufficient infrastructure to offer potable water to the populace. Recently, their supply of TB meds was cut off in the whole country. They are purchased with UN and US relief funds. It was discovered that one of their VP's had simply intercepted the funds.

quote:

Originally posted by brianatwood:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:

quote:

Originally posted by brianatwood:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:

quote:

Originally posted by brianatwood:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
TAX
–noun
1. a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services, levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.
2. a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand.

Per your definition, you don't think you should have to pay for services rendered?

Never suggested anywhere in this thread that taxes shouldn't be paid. What I'm trying to say is that we are asked to pay too many taxes because government is spending too much money trying to do too many things...most of them not very well.

OK, but the point of your posts often seems exaggeration, as well consistent over-generalization supporting your opinion regarding government effectiveness.

I'm guessing that they pay a lot less in taxes in Uganda and that they are a lot freer vis a vis government in their daily lives. Where would you rather lives?

Brian, please specify any genuine exaggeration in this thread. Please point to any government agency that operates with less waste or fraud or more efficiency than the similarly situated private entity. Why are state govts all over the country privatizing operations like prisons, cafeterias, etc? Because they do a better job with less money.

The root problem in the African countries has nothing to do with a particular form of govt but with massive corruption in leadership, whether elected or not. They won't even provide sufficient infrastructure to offer potable water to the populace. Recently, their supply of TB meds was cut off in the whole country. They are purchased with UN and US relief funds. It was discovered that one of their VP's had simply intercepted the funds.

How about "state governments all over the country" for a start?

I think it's hard to answer your question regarding private vs. public since there are very few apples to apples comparisons. Besides, how do you measure efficiency in prisons or cafeterias or your "etc."--more exaggeration by the way. I don't think measuring by cost is accurate.

The corruption you mention is due to the lack of a strong central government, which is what you, in the end, are arguing against.

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:

quote:

Originally posted by brianatwood:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:

quote:

Originally posted by brianatwood:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:

quote:

Originally posted by brianatwood:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
TAX
–noun
1. a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services, levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.
2. a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand.

Per your definition, you don't think you should have to pay for services rendered?

Never suggested anywhere in this thread that taxes shouldn't be paid. What I'm trying to say is that we are asked to pay too many taxes because government is spending too much money trying to do too many things...most of them not very well.

OK, but the point of your posts often seems exaggeration, as well consistent over-generalization supporting your opinion regarding government effectiveness.

I'm guessing that they pay a lot less in taxes in Uganda and that they are a lot freer vis a vis government in their daily lives. Where would you rather lives?

Brian, please specify any genuine exaggeration in this thread. Please point to any government agency that operates with less waste or fraud or more efficiency than the similarly situated private entity. Why are state govts all over the country privatizing operations like prisons, cafeterias, etc? Because they do a better job with less money.

The root problem in the African countries has nothing to do with a particular form of govt but with massive corruption in leadership, whether elected or not. They won't even provide sufficient infrastructure to offer potable water to the populace. Recently, their supply of TB meds was cut off in the whole country. They are purchased with UN and US relief funds. It was discovered that one of their VP's had simply intercepted the funds.

How about "state governments all over the country" for a start?

I think it's hard to answer your question regarding private vs. public since there are very few apples to apples comparisons. Besides, how do you measure efficiency in prisons or cafeterias or your "etc."--more exaggeration by the way. I don't think measuring by cost is accurate.

The corruption you mention is due to the lack of a strong central government, which is what you, in the end, are arguing against.

Do you really believe what you're writing here? State governments all over the country contract all manner of work to private companies...that's fact, not exaggeration. "etc." is not exaggeration either (road construction, other building work, ETC, ETC, ETC) There is no sense of reason in your statement.

I mentioned prisons because they are a perfect "apples to apples" comparison. The states that have privatized prisons did so because the private companies could manage the prisons more cost effectively than the govt. Another "apples to apples" comparison...40% of doctors refuse to accept Medicaid patients, Medicare is practically bankrupt and both entities have plenty of fraud and waste. And you want to expand govt insurance operations? If you can't measure comparative efficiency by cost, then what measure would you suggest?

So a stronger central govt. eliminates fraud, corruption and waste? Like in Russia, or the US? Give me a break...

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
I gave 2 apples to apples comparison...prisons and health insurance. Are you saying that there isn't significant waste and fraud in Medicaid/Medicare?

You didn't say good governance...you said a strong central government. I was making the point that a strong central government in and of itself is not sufficient to eliminate fraud and corruption. What do you believe then are the key elements to eliminate those? It obviously is not strong central government.

Average public school budgets around the country are 7K to 12K per student per year. In most communities in America, you can attend a private religious school for much less. Here is an interesting analysis from the Washington Post:

"We're often told that public schools are underfunded. In the District, the spending figure cited most commonly is $8,322 per child, but total spending is close to $25,000 per child -- on par with tuition at Sidwell Friends, the private school Chelsea Clinton attended in the 1990s.

What accounts for the nearly threefold difference in these numbers? The commonly cited figure counts only part of the local operating budget. To calculate total spending, we have to add up all sources of funding for education from kindergarten through 12th grade, excluding spending on charter schools and higher education. For the current school year, the local operating budget is $831 million, including relevant expenses such as the teacher retirement fund. The capital budget is $218 million. The District receives about $85.5 million in federal funding. And the D.C. Council contributes an extra $81 million. Divide all that by the 49,422 students enrolled (for the 2007-08 year) and you end up with about $24,600 per child.

For comparison, total per pupil spending at D.C. area private schools -- among the most upscale in the nation -- averages about $10,000 less. For most private schools, the difference is even greater."

quote:

Originally posted by L-Boy:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
I gave 2 apples to apples comparison...prisons and health insurance. Are you saying that there isn't significant waste and fraud in Medicaid/Medicare?

You didn't say good governance...you said a strong central government. I was making the point that a strong central government in and of itself is not sufficient to eliminate fraud and corruption. What do you believe then are the key elements to eliminate those? It obviously is not strong central government.

Average public school budgets around the country are 7K to 12K per student per year. In most communities in America, you can attend a private religious school for much less. Here is an interesting analysis from the Washington Post:

"We're often told that public schools are underfunded. In the District, the spending figure cited most commonly is $8,322 per child, but total spending is close to $25,000 per child -- on par with tuition at Sidwell Friends, the private school Chelsea Clinton attended in the 1990s.

What accounts for the nearly threefold difference in these numbers? The commonly cited figure counts only part of the local operating budget. To calculate total spending, we have to add up all sources of funding for education from kindergarten through 12th grade, excluding spending on charter schools and higher education. For the current school year, the local operating budget is $831 million, including relevant expenses such as the teacher retirement fund. The capital budget is $218 million. The District receives about $85.5 million in federal funding. And the D.C. Council contributes an extra $81 million. Divide all that by the 49,422 students enrolled (for the 2007-08 year) and you end up with about $24,600 per child.

For comparison, total per pupil spending at D.C. area private schools -- among the most upscale in the nation -- averages about $10,000 less. For most private schools, the difference is even greater."

If you go to true independent private schools, I think in most cases they cost as least as much or more. In the case of religious schools, they may have lower tuition, but they often subsidized by the church, may have more volunteerism associated from the church etc. Also, studies have shown that on balance the education given by religious schools slightly lags public and other private schools.

Public schools have a lot of other burdens that they must accomodate for, including special needs kids, behavioral issues, etc. Private schools just kick kids out who don't fit in. In many instances it is not just bad parenting that is causing this.

So this begins to resemble the health care debate. You could certainly lower costs if you are willing to just exclude most kids with particular issues that require more resources, just like conservatives generally advocate lowering health care costs by driving the sick out of the insurance pool.

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
I gave 2 apples to apples comparison...prisons and health insurance. Are you saying that there isn't significant waste and fraud in Medicaid/Medicare?

You didn't say good governance...you said a strong central government. I was making the point that a strong central government in and of itself is not sufficient to eliminate fraud and corruption. What do you believe then are the key elements to eliminate those? It obviously is not strong central government.

Average public school budgets around the country are 7K to 12K per student per year. In most communities in America, you can attend a private religious school for much less. Here is an interesting analysis from the Washington Post:

"We're often told that public schools are underfunded. In the District, the spending figure cited most commonly is $8,322 per child, but total spending is close to $25,000 per child -- on par with tuition at Sidwell Friends, the private school Chelsea Clinton attended in the 1990s.

What accounts for the nearly threefold difference in these numbers? The commonly cited figure counts only part of the local operating budget. To calculate total spending, we have to add up all sources of funding for education from kindergarten through 12th grade, excluding spending on charter schools and higher education. For the current school year, the local operating budget is $831 million, including relevant expenses such as the teacher retirement fund. The capital budget is $218 million. The District receives about $85.5 million in federal funding. And the D.C. Council contributes an extra $81 million. Divide all that by the 49,422 students enrolled (for the 2007-08 year) and you end up with about $24,600 per child.

For comparison, total per pupil spending at D.C. area private schools -- among the most upscale in the nation -- averages about $10,000 less. For most private schools, the difference is even greater."

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:

quote:

Originally posted by L-Boy:

quote:

Originally posted by wyogator:
I gave 2 apples to apples comparison...prisons and health insurance. Are you saying that there isn't significant waste and fraud in Medicaid/Medicare?

You didn't say good governance...you said a strong central government. I was making the point that a strong central government in and of itself is not sufficient to eliminate fraud and corruption. What do you believe then are the key elements to eliminate those? It obviously is not strong central government.

Average public school budgets around the country are 7K to 12K per student per year. In most communities in America, you can attend a private religious school for much less. Here is an interesting analysis from the Washington Post:

"We're often told that public schools are underfunded. In the District, the spending figure cited most commonly is $8,322 per child, but total spending is close to $25,000 per child -- on par with tuition at Sidwell Friends, the private school Chelsea Clinton attended in the 1990s.

What accounts for the nearly threefold difference in these numbers? The commonly cited figure counts only part of the local operating budget. To calculate total spending, we have to add up all sources of funding for education from kindergarten through 12th grade, excluding spending on charter schools and higher education. For the current school year, the local operating budget is $831 million, including relevant expenses such as the teacher retirement fund. The capital budget is $218 million. The District receives about $85.5 million in federal funding. And the D.C. Council contributes an extra $81 million. Divide all that by the 49,422 students enrolled (for the 2007-08 year) and you end up with about $24,600 per child.

For comparison, total per pupil spending at D.C. area private schools -- among the most upscale in the nation -- averages about $10,000 less. For most private schools, the difference is even greater."

If you go to true independent private schools, I think in most cases they cost as least as much or more. In the case of religious schools, they may have lower tuition, but they often subsidized by the church, may have more volunteerism associated from the church etc. Also, studies have shown that on balance the education given by religious schools slightly lags public and other private schools.

Public schools have a lot of other burdens that they must accomodate for, including special needs kids, behavioral issues, etc. Private schools just kick kids out who don't fit in. In many instances it is not just bad parenting that is causing this.

So this begins to resemble the health care debate. You could certainly lower costs if you are willing to just exclude most kids with particular issues that require more resources, just like conservatives generally advocate lowering health care costs by driving the sick out of the insurance pool.

According to the Dept of Education, national average private school tuition is $6,600/year
Link

That's well below the national public school average of $10,880. Link

It is also my understanding that SAT/ACT scores are higher in private schools. I'd be curious to see the research you're citing that suggests otherwise.

As far as special needs children go, plenty of private schools cater to their needs and they can usually get public assistance to do so. In any case, kids with serious behavioral difficulties, the kind that disrupt learning opportunities for the kids genuinely trying to learn, need to be segregated.

Nonetheless, my main point remains and is proven also by this example that government can rarely do anything as cheaply or as well as the private sector can.

Conservatives have no desire to kick the sick out of insurance coverage. It's ridiculous to suggest so. Conservatives get sick and need health coverage as much as anyone else.

quote:

Summary
In grades 4 and 8 for both reading and mathematics,students in private schools achieved at higher levels than students in public schools. The average difference
in school means ranged from almost 8 points for grade 4 mathematics, to about 18 points for grade 8 reading.
The average differences were all statistically significant.
Adjusting the comparisons for student characteristics resulted in reductions in all four average differences of approximately 11 to 14 points. Based on adjusted school means, the average for public schools was significantly
higher than the average for private schools
for grade 4 mathematics, while the average for private schools was significantly higher than the average for public schools for grade 8 reading. The average differences
in adjusted school means for both grade 4 reading and grade 8 mathematics were not significantly different from zero.
Comparisons were also carried out with subsets of private schools categorized by sectarian affiliation.
After adjusting for student characteristics, raw score average differences were reduced by about 11 to 15 points. In grade 4, Catholic and Lutheran schools were each compared to public schools. For both reading and mathematics, the results were generally similar to those based on all private schools. In grade 8, Catholic,
Lutheran, and Conservative Christian schools were each compared to public schools. For Catholic and Lutheran schools for both reading and mathematics, the results were again similar to those based on all private schools.
For Conservative Christian schools, the average
adjusted school mean in reading was not significantly different from that of public schools. In mathematics, the average adjusted school mean for Conservative Christian schools was significantly lower than that of
public schools.