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Heisman Gator |
Political correctness or the lack of Muslim officers (needed for perspective and balance)? Darn, that was painful. |
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Heisman Gator |
Oh, I would say the issue is with any fundamentalist view.
Islam appears, in the writings I've read, to be pretty dog gone fundamentalist. Why some know how to disregard it and a sizeable portion cannot, I am not sure. Is it education or or is it culture? Darn, that was painful. |
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Heisman Gator |
No, I'm not talking about quotas... I'm saying that when it all plays out, ALL the indicators will have been there, obviously so it now appears, but no one in a million years would take action to kick him out due to his faith. That said, I'm not even sure he could have been discharged even with the indicators, but probably disciplined which also would have been called anti-Muslim. Just a tough, tough situation to have done something before hand, but again, I don't think guys like this are mis-interpreting Islam, I put them in the "true believer" category, not the "nut job" category (even though the two might be the same as far as I am concerned, regardless of religion). I think this guy was just as nutty about his religion as Tom Cruise is about his or any Christain is about theirs... the difference is in what their books tell them to do about non-believers. |
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Heisman Gator |
A lot of people will groan here because a lot of people have tried to call this book "anti-Islamic," but if I had to recommend one book about Islam, it would be "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam" by Robert Spencer. I have seen a MILLION attacks on Spencer himself, but have yet to hear or read anyone cogently (my big word of the day) try to argue against what he wrote. It simply says this: here is what the Koran/Suras/Hadith say, look at what they are doing. The lynch pin to Islam as far as I'm concerned(although it doesn't apply in this case), is keeping the population illiterate and saying that the only education can be for religious purposes (and none for women). That is the problem in the extremely poor and illiterate regions of KSA, Afghanistan, Pakistan, North and East Africa... you get the idea. Illiteracy is the number one problem... if you can't read the Koran/Hadith on your own in your own tongue, then you cannot form your own opinion of what it says or means. This gives the Mullahs ALL the power and ability to brainwash anyone, just like any other cult/religion. |
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Heisman Gator |
Islam has some fundamentalistic beliefs, there is no doubt. However, there are several Muslims I know and talk with where they interpret the words differently - much more internal. Granted, they are well educated.
With this said, I do believe Islam needs to go through its own schism/reformation etc. Personally, I am hoping the Sunni/Shai situation will boil over and cause that. Darn, that was painful. |
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All-American Gator |
It goes back to the old Limey BS (you call it white men drawing lines on the map). Limeys sided with the virulent elements of Islam (Saud Family who sheltered Mohd. Wahab). Wahab was hunted down by the moderate Ottaman turks. He took refuge with a powerless Saud tribe. Brits had a problem with the Shias (who wanting them out of their regions). They found an ally in the Saud and set them (and their stooges in other Arab nations) in power. Move over to the other side of Asia (SE Asia) and the same kind of crap formed with the Deobandi school in British Raj (India) and moved to present day Pakistan. Brits found the same virulent islam as an ally (here Hindus wanted the Brits out). Maybe, the found that this kind of Islam matched with their Victorian BS?? Brits left US this mess to deal with. We need to sign a new Treaty of Tripoli/Algeria with the moderate elements of Islam (non Wahabi)?? |
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Heisman Gator |
I agree... Islam has some GREAT parts that are worth living by... if you cherry pick them through personal choice. However, that is not "practicing Islam." The problem with Islam is abrogation... which wipes out all the good parts. Your friends are "bad Muslims!"  |
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All-American Gator |
Hehehe.. You my whole post put in five words!!! |
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Heisman Gator |
Yeah, I always kind of joke about "bad Muslims," but in reality, by the Koran/Suras/Hadith... they are worse than us infidels! So I always do the wink, but you know what I mean. |
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All-American Gator |
I worked with a religious turk (who went to prayer every Friday). They started a new Islamic center in Rochester Hills, MI. He said within a few weeks of this new center opening, SE Asian muslims started attending prayer there. They made a scene with the Turkish Imam about women in prayer hall. They did not like women praying with the men. My friend was surprised with this whole mess. He said the SE muslims were stupid and not true muslims. They ended up putting a wall in the prayer hall to split women from the men. The SE Asian muslims were not happy with that as well. They wanted their women to pray in their homes!! |
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Heisman Gator |
Case in point... the SE Asian Muslims are actually "good Muslims" and yor friend's crew are "bad Muslims." Whacky, but fact... by the book, the women shouldn't be there at all. |
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All-American Gator |
The irony is that most of the SE Asian (Hindus and Buddist) were converted to Islam by the Turks. Moghuls (or Mongols) as they called themselves. |
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Heisman Gator |
Ahhh but that's one ofthe biggest problems with Islam... all of the INTERNAL ironies/contradictions... they tried to "fix" that internally with abrogation, but it's not working out so well. I don't know how we can expect an external reconcilliation with the rest of the planet (n.b., NOT just Christians and Jews, but the WHOLE PLANET) until they do so internally. |
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Head Ball Coach |
Link
The unfortunate fact is that the current level of hate will only breed more of the above, and the cycle just gets worse. I am no big fan of religion either, especially Islam, You have to wonder if some of the hate that we are seeing above is some of the same hate exhibited in this thread or elsewhere.
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Heisman Gator |
Understood, BUT... as a kid in Detroit in the late 70's and early 80's, EVERY Japanese car got keyed, period (and back then, there literally weren't any on the roads...it was very noticeable to non-Detroiters who were in town). I didn't then see Japanese car owners going into American auto plants or dealerships to slaughter people. There is nothing in this guys past that justifies his actions... EXCEPT his religion, which not just condones it, but demands it. That's how f'd up Islam is. The rest of them are just whacky, but Islam as is is f'd up. PS As for the keyjob on this guys car, that's just ignorance and intolerance from the idiot that did it. As for his family saying he was harrassed, did they encourage him to report it when it happened? There are no excuses for the keyjob and there are no excuses for the slaugter. But the slaughter is explained by the religion, in black and white. The ignorance of the keyjob is just that, ignorance and intolerance. |
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Head Ball Coach |
We here on this board know nothing first hand about this person who as they say allegedly shot and killed 13 and wounded 28 people in Ft. Hood, TX. We do not know how and why his actions were done (for Allah) or for (hate of American Soliders), we simply at this point do not know. I do know he will be spillings his guts in the days and months ahead. We lack the common sense to make sure he does not leave the hospital alive.
His trial will be the biggest world wide love fest for Terrorist of th so called Muslim faith. That in itself is enough reason for him not make it out alive. I am sure as heck that he would not last a week at Leavenworth if he makes it that far. |
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Head Ball Coach |
I figured somebody would accuse me of trying to justify his actions - that is not the case. Clearly, the guy was mentally disturbed, doesn't seem like the type of guy who should be counseling people, etc. I don't view this guy much differently than the Columbine kids - social outcasts of sorts, mentally disturbed, with people throwing gas on the fire with their antagonistic views. All I am saying is we continue to see this stuff, and in today's instant media and polarized environment, we will see more. When people are alienated, they tend to gravitate towards the fringes, not to the middle. Maybe you start as a "moderate" muslim, then after years of harassment, couple that with a loose screw and a chip on your shoulder, you are screaming "Allah Akbar" and killing innocent people. No different in my mind than disenfranchised kids who listed to explicit lyrics and end up taking them literally. The point is - for all the additional focus on Islam, much of it will be negative, and some of it will increase hateful acts. So when we have this discussion of how bad Islam is - what exactly do we expect to come from it? Are we proposing religious litmus tests for the military, or society in general? If not, then what good is going to come of this Islam bashing, even if a small portion of it is deserved?
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Heisman Gator |
Here's the difference for me L-Boy... his actions are 100% consisten with the writings and teaching of Islam, period. I think McVeigh's actions were 100% consistent with his political beliefs. I don't think either of them were crazy, just true believers. |
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Heisman Gator |
Two thoughts.
How many marches have there been in the US with those involved carrying signs that read Death to the US and Kill the Infidels. Every nationality on this earth has those of many of the religions that will use violence in reaction to the hate they carry in their hearts. Some of this comes from the belief of what their religious tenets are and some comes from the need to believe that they are superior. If we do not at some point grow up and become mature as the Human Race, there may end up being no one left! Peace Just a view from one mile up! |
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Traveling Gator Head Ball Coach  |
CNN interviewed his apartment manager and neighbor last night. Apt. manager said he never had visitors but the day before the shooting, a dark skinned, bushy eyebrowed(?) man visited him for about 5 mintues and left. Neighbor said that the major came over and used his computer several times recently even though major had a computer of his own. This is not looking like a lone ranger type of attack based on what they were discussing last night. Wonder where the trail is going to lead?
Muslims are just like pubs and dems, the silent majorities are allowing the vocal minorities to define them and are afraid to confront the radical members of their own respective parties/faiths.   |
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Heisman Gator |
Did you guys read this article:
WASHINGTON (AP) - A classmate of the Fort Hood shooting suspect says Maj. Nidal Hasan was an outspoken opponent of the U.S. war on terror and called it a "war against Islam." Dr. Val Finnell was a classmate of Hasan's at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Md. Both attended a master's in public health program in 2007 and 2008. Finnell says he got to know Hasan in an environmental health class. At the end of the class, students gave presentations. Finnell says other classmates wrote on subjects such as dry cleaning chemicals and mold in homes, but Hasan's topic was whether the war against terror was "a war against Islam." Finnell described Hasan as a "vociferous opponent" of the terror war. Finnell says Hasan told classmates he was "a Muslim first and an American second." |
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Head Ball Coach |
Hasan betrayed himself. He made known to the world that his words were lies when he recanted his oath of office. Either that or he was a sleeper of which he could have been. We may well see more incidents like this on the future. This is part of the American way. We trust those who say they are part of us, then pay for the difficult cost when they are not.
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Head Ball Coach |
With all due respect, I am not going to consider you as my definitive source of what Islam does and doesn't teach. I have heard numerous studious muslims who refute the notion that the teaching are violent, and assert that those often quoted passages are taken out of context and other passages indicate a different philosophy. To some degree you can dig select passages out of the bible that seem completely at odds at what we consider common decency these days. The old testament is riddled with rather violent stuff. I am not interested in a discussion of this religion is better than that one, etc. They are all created fictions in my opinion - and there is a long history of christianity being used in the name of violence. Don't get me wrong, I suspect some of the passages in the Koran can easily be interpreted to violent ends - and I am in no way trying to defend it. My point is these public condemnations of Islam are probably not helpful - all they will do is stoke anti muslim sentiment and ultimately fuel the fire for those who choose to interpret the Koran in self serving violent terms.
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Head Ball Coach |
Hasan is a muslim that believes in jihad. There are other muslims who do not. However when confronted with jihadist, they roll over every time.
There is no counter group in this country for the muslim extremist. If this continues there will be and good and bad muslims will be caught in the crosshairs of their sights. It is a no win for the US. To answer why there where so many killed and wounded; as anybody who has been in a Army hospital knows there are no weapons present other than MP's or CID people. Most of these people were people who were on their first MOB for deployment. In other word, newbies. Hasan was armed, and unless you are trained otherwise you will lose to the business end of a weapon everytime. Once the shooting started, it was mayhem. Once first responder should up it was way to late. I would think armed guards went on duty in all Army facilities before the night was over with. Damn hard way to learn a lesson. |
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Heisman Gator |
Yes, a fact that is often overlooked. Humans are not perfect. This happens when you believe or trust political theory too much. Darn, that was painful. |
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True Gator |
Shouldn't an army base be the last place where a terrorist should be able to shoot at people uninterrupted for 10 minutes? After all, an army base is filled with soldiers who carry guns, right? Unfortunately, that is not the case. Beginning in March 1993, under the Clinton administration, the army forbids military personnel from carrying their own personal firearms and mandates that "a credible and specific threat against [Department of the Army] personnel [exist] in that region" before military personnel "may be authorized to carry firearms for personal protection." Indeed, most military bases have relatively few military police as they are in heavy demand to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan. Link I will always place the mission first. I will never accept defeat. I will never quit. I will never leave a fallen comrade. |
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True Gator |
Major Nidal Malik Hasan called himself a "soldier of Allah" on business cards found in his apartment after the shooting rampage at Fort Hood in which he is accused of murdering 13 people. Link I will always place the mission first. I will never accept defeat. I will never quit. I will never leave a fallen comrade. |
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Gatorsports.com Forums Gatorsports Forums Politics 12 Soldiers Killed and 31 Wounded in Fort Hood Shooting
Forums Gatorsports Forums Politics 12 Soldiers Killed and 31 Wounded in Fort Hood Shooting